Steve: We are not millennials.

We are

what's up on collaboration as
an art form delivered as value.

Marijn: Hey, Steve.

Steve: Hey, Marijn I 73, 73.

Yeah, we just checked.

So how do I say, Hey Steve in German?

Marijn: Now does

Steve: no.

Of course not.

So you're fresh back from

Marijn: a, well, we
can kind of fresh back.

Yeah, exactly.

I've been back for a few days already,
but yes, it was collapsed summit.

It was everything.

A big conference needs to be lots of
people, lots of vendors, a lot of soft

speakers, lots of drunken banters,
lots of scootering around the city,

Steve: but with a little hint
of levelness because of Corona.

Marijn: Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, I have to say that the guys at
his expense really did an amazing job.

Last, of course, a bunch of people that
were not coming because all the, the,

the, the, the numbers were going up.

No.

So we, we only had around 1800 people,
which is still a massive number.

Wow.

But it didn't feel cramped
because we had lots of space.

Everyone was wearing their
face mask all the time.

Yeah, exactly.

Their chin diapers all the time.

And it actually felt, it felt really.

Right.

So I'm, I'm really happy that I went.

Yup.

Steve: I was saying, I said to the
last one, I wish I had organized

myself, but but there will
definitely do the scotchy summit.

Exactly.

Just talking about that.

So that's a definite Dewar.

And before that, I think we'll go
and do some podcast recording in

Marijn: bars set long.

Nah, the, yes, I'm looking
forward to a few days in the,

well, hopefully relative sunshine
should be last time we were there.

We had pretty nice sweater
breakfast on the roof.

Exactly.

That was brilliant.

So we will do a few days at the
end of February, a few days of

Barcelona, some formula, one testing.

Yes.

Some whiskey tasting or recording
some podcasts, talking about

business and then we will fly to
Blasko for the Scottish summit.

Where I will do a session.

Yep.

And we will do a lot of whiskey tasting
as one does when they are in Scotland.

Steve: I think so.

And we'll bunch on a few planes
and that sounds like fun.

So that's sorted out.

We've got Christmas before then.

Of course we have got, we
have episode 73 before that.

Exactly.

Cool.

Cool.

Cool.

Thank you for the very, very big welcome.

I, for those of you that listened to
episode 72, I had to mix it down at the

weekend or last weekend, and I thought
it was hilarious with moraines little

woodsy start and now he's powerful.

It was brilliant.

I really enjoyed that.

Yeah.

Marijn: Yeah.

I was not feeling 100% last time.

I still have like a little
bit of a cold today.

It's not Corona promises, not Corona
but I I'm really, really, really,

really, really into it today.

And I'm so freaking
excited to talk about this

Steve: topic.

Alright.

So let's just touch on what we're
trying to do and where this came from.

So effectively we are so
experienced with office 365.

We are superheros.

Exactly.

We

Marijn: know what we do,

Steve: and we don't mean, secondly,
you said that on purpose, didn't you.

So you're going to use it.

It phoned you up and says I've lost my one
drive files and you go, no, you haven't.

That's so, okay.

It's not, they're not lost.

Go to your recycle bin.

Well, Maureen, I lost my one drive files.

Marijn: Okay.

And there were in the recycle bin.

They weren't in my

Steve: recycle bin.

What did you do?

Well, actually I lost
the last nine episodes.

Of office it's five distilled all of
the master files, all of the mixdown

files all of the music files for the
introduction music, all of it had gone.

All right.

But it was all synchronized.

It was actually in my synchronization
folder on my fileshare, but I think

I made an assumption, oh, I made
an ass out of you and me because

I assumed that everything was
being synchronized to one drive.

So you know, where you synchronize
your folders down and you get a section

which says SharePoint sites, and it puts
your domain name in and you get all the

sites in there and everything's listed.

So I had all the sites and
there's everything listed.

And every time I mix a new episode,
I do a save as into the same folder.

That's been synchronized into
office 365 and it's in the place

against the synchronized section.

So it's all good to go.

But do you know that
you can create folders?

You didn't know that.

Did you, you know, if you go to your one
drive and you can, you can go to your

one drive and you create a new folder and
then it gets synchronized to one drive.

If you do that in the
SharePoint side, do you know?

You can, you can go to the
fileshare, create folders in there

that don't get synchronized back.

I did not know that.

Well, think about the architecture.

Your one drive is one folder already.

Marijn: It's one document

Steve: zone.

So your, your because you're doing it in
that it's a folder with one folder, one

site, one cyclist, and you got to go.

Yeah.

But your SharePoint libraries
are actually, it's a list of

furries, one folder per library.

So you can create folders in
there at the windows 10 level.

Oh boy.

So I found that out because I had to
use it a few weeks ago that created a

bunch of folders and I'm sitting there.

Yeah.

He says, but they're not on my
SharePoint site and I'm going, but

they must be a SharePoint site.

No, not on my SharePoint site.

And I worked out the, what he had done
was he created them at the root level of

the of the share, which wasn't actually
in the folder that was being synchronized

was not on a document library.

So he was actually on the machine
and apparently it looks like what had

happened is at some point, this driver
had got disconnected from the drive.

And so I kind of some point
created it and everything else

and it wasn't being synchronized.

So I deleted it because what I,
what actually, and even asked

me if I wanted to delete it.

And I said, yes, of course,

Marijn: I know what I'm doing.

I'm a professional.

Steve: So when it was, I got a document
library and inside the document

library, I had a bunch of folders.

And then I had general yes,
because it was obviously teams.

And then I noticed that on my
windows 10 I'd actually got general.

As well as a separate feed on, on
my synchronized file exploring,

it's all very complicated.

You can see why it went wrong.

So I went well.

That's okay.

I will synchronize down from the higher
level upon the library, which I did.

So I now knew that I was synchronizing
that, and then I'll delete the drive, the

folders from the sub folders below it.

And it turns out that it, that I
was saving files in there locally

on my machine that were not getting
synchronized back to the library.

It was just a folder.

So just be warned that even though it may
look in internet Explorer, SRE, windows,

Explorer, this stuff's being synchronized.

It's not.

So it said, are you sure you want
to delete these because they're

too big to go into the recycle bin.

And I went, yeah.

It's okay.

Look, I'm being synchronized here.

No.

Marijn: Oh, what a mistake at the Mecca?

Steve: It was, I was.

Marijn: Yeah, good shit.

Yeah, I know.

I know.

Steve: Ah, I need to go sit down now.

Oh, reminding me.

Yeah.

So I screwed up.

So that was.

Marijn: So then you did what every normal
human being would do and go to the black

net to the dark web, buy some Jacker
software to actually rebuild your disc

drive and get back all those disconnected

Steve: files.

Yeah.

I to restore them all back.

So yes, I had to kind of pay out
70 euros or something for a piece

of software, but of course, then it
just brings back all the pointers.

It doesn't bring back the logical
folder structure and everything else.

So dump it all onto a hard drive.

So one day when I've got nothing
else to do, I'll try and rebuild it.

But for the time being, and of course
the other problem was it wouldn't

resynchronize the library back either
because he thinks there's already a

synchronization on the, on the machines.

So no, it was a learning experience.

Wow.

Marijn: There you

Steve: go.

Okay.

So be warned everybody.

All right.

We spend so many years and trust
this stuff you, because you

fall into the trap of Microsoft.

Won't let me down.

What'd your, t-shirt say the best way
to predict the future is to create it.

Exactly.

Marijn: Yeah.

Well, yeah.

Yeah.

Fucking, you know what
Maxim will say about that?

Steve: I don't, I don't even know what
I want you to answer this, but tell

me what would Microsoft say about this

Marijn: that's valuable feedback.

Ooh,

Steve: did Jeff that's nice.

Anyway.

Yes, everybody.

So I had fun with that, but there you go.

So what do we got planned?

We're going to, we're going to talk about.

Where we're at with with our rollouts
and our builds and our migrations

and the businesses we deal with.

And then we're going to taste a rather
special whiskey because we always do

that on this podcast, but this woman,

Marijn: oh, oh, I've been actually been
looking forward to this moment to drinking

this whiskey for a number of weeks.

Ever since I knew you got one of
these, I know who do we need to say?

Thank you to thank yous for.

Steve: Oh, okay.

So most people will remember that a
while ago we went on a tour of the UK.

We went, we did the Southern, we
did the team's event comes first.

And then we did a bit of a whiskey tour.

We did Cotswolds and we did towed
the Oxford artist and distillery.

Yeah.

Rye whiskey with heritage.

Marijn: Yes, medieval re

Steve: barley and wheat
and rice in a sequence.

And one of you went to look at the
website because it's just so cool.

Well, we actually gave a

Marijn: few bottles of that away
at at the collapsed tasters.

Yeah.

Some days just because there was
some people that I know love whiskey.

So yeah.

This is, it's

Steve: very, very unusual.

So we tasted the number three
and we went overboard about it.

Yeah.

And today he goes, is that good?

It is amazing.

And today we're going to do a number four.

Exactly.

So we're going to do number four
because bought a bottle and he

said, Hey, if you guys want to
taste it, go ahead and taste it.

Yeah.

Marijn: You know how we, how well, well,
every time I do a presentation, every time

I do a session, I talk about this podcast.

I always make that same joke.

Yeah.

We try to do whiskey before we were
talking about technology, but that

doesn't work very well, but maybe in this
case we should actually, but I can't.

No, no, no.

Okay.

I can wait for just another half an hour

Steve: to really try and stop myself
talking about whiskey, because I certainly

listened to my comms verse recording
of the day, the first four minutes.

We're talking about whiskey whiskey
because you know, in a silly way.

Okay guys, let's stop and
move on and talk about Ms.

Teams.

Okay.

So what I want to go with this today,
I actually want to look at how we.

Can move forward in a very, very efficient
way, by looking at something that I have

labeled as plan to evolve, how you plan
to evolve, how you constantly move on.

And two podcasts ago, we did teacher
sizes and agile and all that.

And of course that's exactly about
that iterative delivery and then

iterative improvement and iterative
improvement improvement proven.

So I was working

Marijn: out how to do this kind of, we
kind of got customers that are both on the

same or at the same level or on the same

Steve: space.

Yeah.

We kind of go through
the same thought process.

So

Marijn: we, we both have a
customer that has rolled out

themes just for meetings and chat.

Yep.

And what we're, we both have a
task right now, each for our own

customers to kind of map out.

How we go from this, where we

Steve: go next, equally, I've also got a
customer that took a different approach.

So they decided intranet first.

Okay.

So before we did collaborations because
they wanted to do something quick.

So, and, and that I think is a
reasonable decision to take so short.

The first thing is, you know, what is
the most logical thing to do work first?

And this is not about
going to the business.

Although most people do, okay.

They say to the business,
what will add you most value?

And they go for all the things that
they meetings, chat, messaging,

sharing documents with external
people, that kind of stuff.

And that's fine.

If you want to do the quick
wins, you can go deliver that.

And that's where you start
the, this other client.

They decided that they wanted to, rather
than go down the long process of sorting

out their content architecture and
their SharePoint sites and libraries,

content types, and all that kind of
stuff wanted to go and hit something.

So we did intranet.

Sure.

So we put pictures inside the route
they took and that then gave the

business something to look at and
work on because they did not have an

intranet in place let's say at work.

So we have let's start off by
imagine cross this top of the page.

You have all of the applications.

Then you've started off with something,
whether it's exchange one, drive

teams, whatever you do, whatever
you've started, you've started off

with something and you'll have done
some kind of baseline governance.

Hey, episode X, X, whatever the number
is, go and read about baseline governance.

But it's about starting off quickly
with a rough idea, a rough outline,

and then developing both the governance
as well as the developing the apps.

And then you have the
really, really big question.

And the really big question is right
in the middle of our board, the

one that gets us going everywhere.

And that question is.

Marijn: What color of shower
curtains do I need to get right?

Yes.

What's next what's now.

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

What's next.

Yes,

Steve: because then we, because when
we talked about what's next, you

said, yes, you go to the business.

Marijn: Yeah, exactly.

That was, that was my idea.

So we've got so many things
that we can roll out.

So what do we need to roll out?

Oh, but we're it we're in, we,
we have to help the business.

So let's ask the business,
what do you want next?

Steve: And so I said, that's okay.

But then I asked you what color
your bathroom was going to be.

Marijn: And I said, di don't know,
we need to take a look at some.

Oh, I said instant.

Imagine

that

Steve: your mother's things.

Yes.

And then I said, imagine your
mother just giving you some shower,

curtains that are blue and pink.

Now, what color bathroom
you're going to have.

And then you can think about it
because you have some context.

Exactly.

And so the whole point about what's next
is yes, value is incredibly important.

So is strategy.

So is vision.

So is adoption.

So is all those other kinds of things.

And the only way you can do
that is if you plan to evolve.

So you work out where your starting
point is and where your ending point.

So that's what we really want to try
and talk about here is how we actually

build an, identify those starting
and end points in small tissue sizes

or big tissue sizes so that we can
evolve our office receives five in a

positive way, align to the business,

Marijn: love that, that
phrase plan to evolve.

I think it's really cool.

But do you plan to evolve all the way to
the end or is that an iterative process?

Will that be something that.

Every 30 days or every 90
days or something, if you're

Steve: doing it agile, I think
you'll do a sprinty kind of stuff.

But yeah based upon two or three
episodes ago, when we talked about

epics and a t-shirt sizes, I think,
you know, Hey, I've got a year plan.

So that's where that vision strategy
comes in and actually baseline vision

strategy, because strategy really is
three to five, but so I'm dealing quarter.

So in this quarter,
what am I going to move?

Okay.

What am I going to add to the business?

All right.

And do I wait to finish one before
I start the next store, do I have to

have some kind of layered approach?

And that's where you talk to the business?

I believe to try and identify
the way forward, but.

I am going to say something
that w that you will jump at

and probably a few others.

When I say that, it kind of knows best.

Marijn: That is ridiculous.

That is utterly ridiculous.

No, it's true.

It might.

Well, it might be true.

It depends.

It's my favorite dancer.

Yes, it depends.

It depends,

Steve: especially for honor.

All right.

So on his LinkedIn pages, he
can sit there and goes that's.

Exactly.

Thanks for the shout out, my friend.

Thanks for the shout-out.

That's cool.

But yes, we do kind of know best, but we
don't actually want to put the lid on it.

We actually want to just sit there and
say, in my opinion, with a Pinterest page,

Marijn: yes, we can show you 50 examples
and you might like five of them.

And we might go with one of those five.

Yeah, I get that.

But then again, I don't
want to say, I D knows best.

I kind of want to say the experience
consultant that you're going to

hire might know best because we,
as consultants are getting projects

with a customer because there, it
doesn't know all the possibilities

that you can do in office 365.

Yeah.

And that's why they're
bringing us on board,

Steve: the experience that
we have to show and play.

Yeah, exactly.

Yep.

I get all of that.

And I think there's, I think a lot
of it, people also want to turn

around and say, you know, I don't
know, you know, I have no idea.

I have a number of service providers.

But that didn't do a great job
with managing it service, but

they've got no real idea where to
start when it comes to, to this.

Marijn: And that's okay.

I mean, if I had to do an
exchange migration, I'll

get a professional onboard.

If I have to roll out an ERP system, I
will get a team of professionals on board.

I don't know anything about.

Steve: Yeah, last week I
had to do some workflows.

I had to go at it for a week
and then I gave in and I bought

professional in exactly, exactly.

It was done in two hours.

Marijn: Exactly.

So I've been doing a really big PowerApps
project for the last few months.

And I've also said to that customer,
because I said from the beginning, I

don't know Jack shit about power apps.

And we just started working and
it's a nice low code platform.

So we now have around.

2000 lines of code.

So at that moment I said, okay, now it's
time that we bring in a professional

that does review of everything that
we've done, that we've been doing,

because I'm pretty sure that all these
things could be heavily optimized.

Yeah,

Steve: that's true.

So let's we plan, we plan to evolve
and the important thing is an ident.

And the simple thing by the way
is what's my starting point.

And what do I want to get to before
I then say your definition of dumb?

Yep.

So that

Marijn: starting point, would
that be something like the

maturity model that we've

Steve: talked about?

It would, that's a really good reference.

Yes.

When we, when we talked about the the
maturity model and I can't remember

what else we talked about, let's go.

So I'm getting older.

My memory is going, but we talked about
the maturity model along with one or

two other things on a previous episode.

So maturity model, definitely,
but also, you know, what is the

sensible application to start.

Based upon what the business
is telling you, they need.

I mean, you can't ignore the business.

I know we joked about the business,
but you know, the we talked earlier

a lot of businesses and now saying
better meetings, better chat, better

messaging, because all of a sudden we
really haven't gone back to the office.

We're still working from home and it
felt like this was a kind of wartime

emergency that we had to deal with.

And, you know, we don't mind the
inconvenience because we know we're

doing, we have to do safe, but actually
it's now been going on for a while.

And so can we now make this

Marijn: efficient action?

Really a really cool narrative going on.

I've seen that a few times already
where companies are now talking to their

employees and not saying, let's go back
to the old ways or let's go back to work.

But actually they're saying, okay, let's
embrace the new way of working hybrid.

Yeah, instead of let's go
back to how it was before.

No, let's go to the new way of work.

I think that's for your adoption
and your communication purposes.

I think that is super brilliant.

It's a really good narrative staff.

Steve: It is.

It's kind of about 10 years old.

Yes, no.

And I actually created a new SharePoint
site with the title new way of working.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Marijn: I, I found a folder from 2015
or something on my one drive that hadn't

been did that I was thinking about seeing
that, but I was going to be civil about

it, but yes, with, with some presentations
from Microsoft with their stra strategy

around N w O w the new way of work,

Steve: let's just say we
have a logical order here.

I mean, I can pull one
off the top of my head.

One drive because it's easy and simple
and it has got personal drives exchange.

Let's take her

Marijn: own, let's take her own examples.

The one where our organizations
just have a messaging, chatter

messaging and, and meetings.

Yes.

Steve: So, so would you do that?

Would you agree with them doing that?

Marijn: If we would have limited
resources and COVID came knocking on our

door, everybody had to work from home.

We would no, no, no.

Bear with me.

Bear with me.

I'll try it.

We've got all our employees
sitting in the office.

We've got fall shares.

Okay.

They're not optimal, but they work.

Everybody knows how they work and suddenly
everyone needs to start working from home.

What is the solution that they need
most urgently is something to have meet.

So we're all out, but give

Steve: second, I need to stop you a
second because you know, you're right.

You're spot.

And I agreed with it.

Marijn: I'm a professional.

You are a professional.

Don't delete my files on one drive.

Steve: You said you would go to say that.

No, no, no, no, no.

But you said everybody's in the office.

That's where you started the journey.

But if everybody was in the office,
you would take a different approach.

You talk about, of course I want
to do files or we'd want to do

collaborations that we want to do
it, but this situation today is yeah.

Now it can make that call.

Yes.

Because it can do have a very, very
brief conversation with the business.

So what is it you need in this case?

I think the feedback, a
lot of people are getting.

Meetings and chats and messages,
which is all well and good.

So that's the logical.

And maybe then you think about
whether your exchange is there or not.

Then maybe you think about SharePoint
online because then you actually

do teams collaboration because
you can't do teams collaboration

before you do SharePoint governance.

And that again is IT-based decisions.

So you have a kind of order and
you do this and this and this, you

might throw voice in at them point
power apps first or voice first.

I don't know which or power
automate, you know, those.

So you've got a kind of logical baseline
strategy for moving towards Microsoft 365.

Yes.

And here's the thing, notice that pause
then just to build the anticipation.

Awesome,

Marijn: brilliant.

Very professional.

Steve: It was, yeah, I thought so too.

If only had mentioned it because
I've now forgotten the thing.

So here's the thing about that is
that it's all, could we change.

So the point about this plan to evolve
is that you have a rough order of where

you're going, but it's not fixed in stone.

Marijn: That's why the
dinosaurs died because they were

They couldn't, they couldn't
evolve fast enough or

Steve: fair dues.

Yeah.

But you need to stay at flexible,
but you say you have an outline

strategy that says, Hey, this is
where, where we kind of need to go.

We know where we starting from.

We know where the value is.

Let's work that through the only
time that you have to fix that is

when you start the adoption program
and your communications plan.

So there's a certain window that
says I can't change that part.

And that's where your
quarterly planning comes in.

So you've got your plan.

Planning says, this is what
we're going to do this quarter.

And we don't change your mind.

It doesn't matter what comes forward.

If we have to stop and
replan, that's fine.

It's a kind of disaster, but.

The idea, the opportunity to say this
is where we're going to start from.

And this is where we're going
to evolve to is relatively easy.

And it's all based upon that baseline
strategy, baseline governance, this

doing things like these are the devices
I'm going to work with this quarter and

set up my organization on these are the
environments we work in, in where does

Citrix or virtual desktops fit into this?

Where does laptops fit into this?

Where do mobile phones fit
into this endpoint security

access or conditional stuff?

They're all big conversations to
have, but you don't want to delay

everything to get those decisions made.

First.

You want to be able to give the business
a taste of what's about to come so

they can decide whether they like it
or not, whether it needs to be changed,

whether it needs to be updated, which

Marijn: also allows your
baseline governance to be.

Start it with high level and
then drill deeper as the business

figures out, how they want to use
it and how you want to control

Steve: it.

Exactly.

And so that's kind of where
we're where we're at with this.

So how do you identify then where your
starting point is in terms of, what do

you want to plant is off that's that's
really one of the key questions to have.

Marijn: I think that could be
pretty easily talked about.

I think that's, that's kind of an
easy conversation to have, like,

Steve: but is it not the conversation?

Like what color bathroom do you want?

So, Hey, let's build a house.

No, it's

Marijn: kind of like, okay.

Yeah.

Well we, so we just build a house
and now we need to decide what's the

next room that we're going to fix?

Steve: it?

No, no, not big a house.

Marijn: Do you want?

Yeah, exactly.

But let's say the lease
in our old house is done.

We have to move all our stuff to new
house, but none of the rooms are done.

What would be the room
that we need to do first?

Maybe it's the toilet.

no, do we, do we need to do the
kitchen first because maybe my

parents were living next door and I
can always go take a shower there or

do we need to do the bathroom first?

Because there's a really good
restaurant that delivers cheap food.

So we don't have to cook.

Do you have.

Maybe your baby depends on my persona.

Your

Steve: persona.

Yes.

You have babies.

Marijn: Yeah, exactly.

So there's a lot of, do you need
soundproofing on the, on the walls?

Exactly.

When you have a baby,

Steve: but you are able to make
those decisions and you don't have to

make all the decisions immediately.

Marijn: No, but it's, it's a
pretty easy conversation to

have like, okay, where are we?

And what are our biggest
drivers for change?

And where do we want to go to,

Steve: I think you're right.

You and I.

Because of the way we work, the way
we think the businesses we deal with,

it's a relatively easy decision.

Yeah.

If you were Garten KPMG and you
said, Hey, how do you want to

roll out your Microsoft 365?

Then they would not say,
oh, that's relatively easy.

They wouldn't have such a huge run-up and
roll up to get to the point where, you

know, they're able to do the first thing.

Marijn: Yeah.

But how I would tackle something like a
200,000 people organization is to really

cut that big elephant into smaller pieces.

Steve: I was actually more
thinking that they would want to

do so much analysis before they

Marijn: started.

They would get

Steve: exactly to bear, to make, take the
risk away from making the wrong decision.

That's the point about this is that none
of this is ever going to be the longest.

Marijn: No, but it's,
it's, it's kinda the same.

Like we did that one customer to get her
where they had different business areas

and every business area had their own team
where they could just kind of do whatever

they want, as long as it was kind of
coherent with the overarching governance.

So, and even within those business
areas, you've got different divisions

that all want different things.

So you're all running different projects
on different speeds for different people.

Steve: Yep.

All right.

So we we've talked enough about, I think
the order and stuff and understanding

where we're at and now setting up.

And I think I've got some sessions on
this, so I'm really trying to work out

how to present this and, and kind of
make it, make it interesting to easily

identify the key learning points.

So but then identifying your
starting point to evolve.

We're back to that question again.

So the third time I've asked the question.

So your starting point is very easy.

It's where are we at now?

And what do we need to add next?

Exactly.

So, and that will fall into two layers.

One is logically from an it
architect to perspective.

What is it we do next and are
there any dependencies to get there

Marijn: the second?

So that would, that would be something
like a D migration, like get, get

that base working in a good order.

Steve: Yes, I guess there's
those dependencies you're right.

So if some people actually say I
want to do meetings and chats and

stuff, then there's a limitation
on what you can do in Ms.

Teams.

So I can set up chat groups.

I can call people.

I can share jewel meetings.

No, that's about it.

Yeah, because unless I do my content
architect, Discretion to define the

governance of my SharePoint sites.

I can't really roll out teams
and channels without having made

some decisions around there.

So my plan to evolve in that case
is that I want to be at my plan

to evolve is I want to be able to
collaborate on content in my Ms

teams and I have a quarter to do it.

Yep.

So what is in that plan to evolve?

What do I actually need to have
done so that I can create my first

team at the end of this quarter
and know that I'm not making them.

And it's relatively simple to do.

Okay.

Depending again, how
complicated you want to get to.

So it's about content architecture.

So it's, so all the usual
baseline decisions are users

going to be a to create teams?

Yes or no.

All right.

When they create a group, do we need
to do any customization in terms

of content type or architecture?

What kind of content is the
organization working on?

Is there any corporate metadata or,
or taxonomies that need to be implied?

They can all be knows.

Of course we can actually say, you
know, just for the team sites for Ms.

Teams, the basic standard document
library, no content types, as it is job

dub, any additional libraries have to
be built in this kind of certain way.

So doesn't stop you putting Ms.

Teams using the default library,
but that's all it's for it's

really, for that interactive.

Collaborative environment based on
that subject, if I want to do, you know

libraries that are storing research
material for a number of chemical

processes, then in that library, I
would want to do metadata and I would

want to use some kind of content type
process, but I can build those on top.

That's my next plan to evolve.

So my scope for my t-shirt size in this
case, because that's the decision based

upon, Hey yeah, we need a better way of
managing our documents and collaborating

on particular subjects is I evolve from
just meetings and messages and chats

into adding documents, meeting messages
and chats because that's all I've added.

I've just added a space where I can store
some content and some lists on top of.

S a specific sets of messages and
conversations around a particular subject.

That's my scope of evolving sounds legit.

And don't know when I
finished when I, I finished.

So I've got my start point and
my end point, and I'm evolving.

So now I look like a rockstar.

I do.

I look like a rock star.

Hey, brilliant.

Because you've given us the,
what you want, what we wanted.

All right.

And may not be perfect, but we understand
that more will come round the corner.

You've scoped what you're going
to do, deliver you've delivered

what you're going to deliver.

You've got a very simple
baseline governance.

That's controlling it.

So you've, you've got all of that stuff
considered, and you've not broke the bank.

Marijn: No, you can make a rock
song singing out of your lungs.

Steve: We will rock you.

There you go.

Karaoke night is a celebration.

Yes.

And I think the, the reason that this
works is because you've not given somebody

a blank sheet of paper and said, Hey, tell
me what you want this house to look like.

All right.

Without being able to give them some
reference points and some information,

because they know that information a

Marijn: true, true.

Yeah.

Steve: okay.

Okay.

And I, and I think that you did a
graph, which I thought was really

quite cool where you kind of said,
Hey, this is how we work out.

What that evolution is, where
you plotted time against value.

Yeah,

Marijn: exactly.

So time or, or cost versus value.

And you kind of need to see where you are
right now and where you want to go to.

Do you want to in your journey, start
with providing lots of extra value while

not going hard on costs, or do you want
to put all the right layers, all the

right bottom layers in place so that
afterwards you can scale up really fast.

Steve: And the thing about the thing
about this process, I think is that

the, the first one is very much like
the waterfall thing that says build a

solid foundation and build from that

Marijn: foundation.

Yeah.

I know a few companies
that do that, like, okay.

Let's first think about
our backup solution.

Let's first think about how we want a D
to look like let's first move the outlook

file, stew exchange, maybe something that
the user doesn't get that much value of.

Once you couple that with giving
people the new outlook, for example,

and giving people the new office
apps and giving people one drive.

So that would be something that is
not very time and cost consuming,

but it, it delivers tremendous

Steve: value.

I think that's the point from my
perspective is always to do the arch

that looks like it's a, you know, a
curve rather than a, I suppose there's

a posh word for, there are some

Marijn: verted curves, nice
mathematical words to describe that.

Yes.

Steve: I like nice curves.

Marijn: Yes.

On the, only on the right places

Steve: that's drafts the right graphs.

So, but going back to this thing
here, so value to me is about

giving people something to do.

Yeah.

If they've got a tool or
something, they can click, then

we're evolving from nothing to.

Being able to create meetings
or groups and share documents.

And then I find though that the
curve upwards is always greater

when you've got something started,
cause you building from it.

So if we take that bathroom idea,
put my curtain up in front of my

shower, I can start showering.

All right.

And, but of course, if I'm still trying
to work out what color everything needs

to be and where the position of this
is going to be and all that kind of

stuff, I can't actually start showering.

And I think once you start sharing
your work out, you know, the showers

in the wrong place or that curtain
really, isn't doing very good.

Thank you mama.

But I really needed a
glass door, you know?

And so you giving something

Marijn: to start talking about
what you'll get otherwise,

Steve: a debtor had done over that.

I want to ask, what are you going to get?

Otherwise,

Marijn: Stevie, we know

Steve: steamy.

Wow.

Marijn: Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Where did that come from?

I don't know.

Steve: Now I'm not going to
be singing red, red, raw.

You're going to be singing steamy
windows, Tina Turner in your car at home.

Marijn: Anyway.

I mean, okay.

Let's go back to evolve plan to evolve.

Steve: So anyway, basically
I feel honestly think we

should bring us together.

Looks like it's going to be short
podcast today, which is fine by me.

Okay.

So we have this order, we know where we're
ordering and what we need to identify then

is those small areas that I know I can
deliver in time on budget and we'll evolve

my users and the business and bring value.

Yep.

Marijn: There's just one little,
but, but I, I don't, I don't want

to mess with your whole idea because
I think it's a super valid idea.

The only problem is if today I'm
going to say, okay, in three months,

I'm going to do lots of automation
and business process optimization.

I will not get any professionals
in treatments because the market

is so demanding these days that
all the workflow professionals are

all booked for at least six months.

Did

Steve: you listen to anything
that I've been talking about?

Marijn: I kind of did, did it

Steve: sink in?

Marijn: I hope it did.

Apparently not.

Oh Jesus.

This one of those, like my girlfriend
does, like, we need to talk shit.

What did I do wrong?

Steve: Absolutely.

Right.

You're absolutely right.

There are some resources
that are difficult to plan

and new and get scheduled.

Yeah.

We're not just deciding that we're
going to stop after four weeks or five

weeks or eight weeks or a quarter.

And we have our strategy.

Remember we have our baseline
strategy, which is saying that

this quarter, we're going to try
and deliver this this quarter.

We're going to deliver that.

But if I need to change
the order I can do.

Of course.

So you should be able to identify, you
know, at this point here, we really need

to pencil in a bunch of power automate
consultants to set up professionals.

So you have that strategy in place
because we talked about having,

you know, these are my devices.

I'm going to deal with, these are my
applications and all that kind of stuff.

So I'm afraid you will get stuck.

Yes.

Unless you actually think about,
you know, that long-term planning

and that's the whole point of
this, but I'm not committed to.

Okay.

I'm not committed to it.

If, if somebody needs to have a
workflow and I need to bring somebody

in for one particular workflow, I
should be flexible enough to do it.

Oh yeah.

And obviously, if I can't get the right
resources, I can't get the resources.

So planning to evolve.

It's about what I can deliver
with the resources I've had

the times, but you're right.

We need to consider those things.

Now where I wanted to go to on this
is that these, these evolutions

are not just about delivering
something to the business.

It's also around the stakeholders in the
board and being able to put the resources

and costs and prices and budgets in
place for all of this kind of stuff.

So when they say, Hey,
yeah, I need this money.

They know what they're going to pay
for and what they're going to get.

So you're also showing that you've
got this stuff, which is cool, but

also means that your adoption is to be
aligned to all of this kind of stuff.

So your adoption is going
to take place all the time.

It's part of that evolution.

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

My users at the end of this process,
we'll be able to do these things now

just because it says, yeah, if you
click here and do this, you can see you

got it there it's finished and done.

I can walk away now.

No it's part of that plan to evolve is
that you're also evolving in parallel your

business and workforce and the people that
really going to get most value out of it.

And you must not ever, ever forget that.

Marijn: And it actually, this plan
actually makes your adoption easier.

It does because you've
already given them documents.

Correct.

But what if you've got documents
that need to be approved?

You know what we'll do next?

We'll do some approval workflows,
making it even easier for you

to work with your documents and
building on top of that previous

thing that they get, that they had

Steve: thinking about this.

Sorry, I don't know why my voice
stopped working then, but the other

thing about the plan to evolve.

Different people will evolve
in different places to others.

So not everybody will
need to do approvals.

So, but other people may well
need to do lists and data.

Yes.

May other people may need to do some
calendaring exercises and because you're

doing things in that iterative small
way, and because you can decide whether

you have enough resources to do things
in parallel, then you're going to.

And you're going to evolve in a way within
costs and you can work in smaller areas.

So that's what you're talking about.

Breaking the business down.

Yup.

Marijn: Yeah.

Yeah.

Cutting up that elephant.

This small piece is absolutely.

Absolutely.

All

Steve: right.

Cool.

Well, I think it's worth Trisha on this.

I still think there's some stuff to deal
with with the, the baseline governance

we've covered a while ago, but I think
there's some work to do on baseline

strategy and baseline visioning.

All right.

You know, cause he needs to be flexible,
but also needs to be planned in some way

and the adoption, but it's really all
about knowing where we can grow, where

we can develop, where we can add value.

All right.

And obviously planning for that
with a vision of improvement

and continual improvement.

Yep.

And then if you add improvement
on top of improvement on top

of improvement, Hey rockstar.

Rockstar

Marijn: status.

That's how you conquer Mount
Everest, go from base camp to

base camp until you reached once.

It's all downhill from there

Steve: afterwards.

Plenty cold.

Marijn: Yeah.

Apparently,

Steve: apparently having
never been there either.

Apparently.

So it's a bit like when I
did my virtual walk-up Fuji.

Oh yeah.

You know, I actually got the live
camera shots and I turned round cause

I could move the phone around and
there was a pile of people behind

me and I'm thinking there's my am at
the top of Fuji on my own, you know?

But no there's 400 people
all cued up on the path.

Yup.

So one way in one way out,
this is Fuji for goodness sake.

Marijn: Anyway.

Anyway.

Yeah.

Let's not talk about Fuji.

Let's talk about tote, toads, tote
to Oxford, artisan distillery.

It's a strange place.

It's a strange place full of strange
people, but you know, what's strange

people do best, make beautiful things.

If you look at artists, I mean, how
many fuck damn crazy people are artists.

Oh my God.

But they make wonderful things.

Steve: The distilleries do we
think we've visited between us

over the last five or 10 years?

60, 70,

Marijn: yes.

At least

Steve: alleged not one of
them is anywhere near as

Marijn: weird as this one.

Exactly.

Yes.

Yeah.

But none of them are bringing forth such.

Steve: Interesting.

Interesting,

Marijn: valuable connections.

Exactly.

No, no.

I mean, don't get me wrong.

I mean, we I've, I've visited every
distillery on Aila and they're

all bringing out amazing stuff,

Steve: but they're all
doing it the same way.

It

Marijn: kind of, yes.

With a very exaggeration of, so Oxford
thousand distilleries, they just decided

to do things in a very different way.

So they said let's take some
medieval grain, but bring it back

to life and let's make some whiskey
of it in a column still mean.

Okay.

So

Steve: sure.

We we've we've we have drank
this product before this deal.

This is the first time we've
gone back to the same distillery.

Potentially.

Marijn: Mm.

Yeah, it's difficult.

I don't think, I don't think so.

I think we did four art bake.

We did the Oop doll and
we did the, a little,

Steve: he did a little
left, couple of free.

We've been to a few times.

You're right.

You're right.

You're right.

So we welcome him back here, but we've
covered it before, so I'm not really,

really going to get into it, but I just
point everybody to the Oxford artists and

distillery website, read their section on
farming and and all that kind of stuff.

But we're going to drink there.

Oh, oh four.

So the graduate is a great name.

Isn't it?

Yes.

Marijn: Mrs.

Robinson.

Steve: So it's the Oxford rye
whiskey batch number four.

Yeah.

Marijn: And every time they
bring out a batch that is just

matured on different kinds of Oak.

Number tree was matured on a mosquito.

Cask I'll trust you.

Yes.

If I'm not mistaken

Steve: and this is a multiple,
this is actually quite a nice

blend of different barrels.

So this the release is a blend of
six casks and they are originally

named 27, 25, 28, 31 33 and 36.

But of course they were different
casts, different, different makes

a woods and stuff like this.

And it was double distilled in
Nautilus and Nimo, which is the

name of their yes, they are.

And they do call it like they're alive.

I'm looking at the picture now on
the website, so it's pretty cool.

It's 51% 51.3%.

So Yeah.

Do you know, why don't you just pour it
into a glass and I'll kind of just let

people know what we're expecting to see.

We've had a little nose of it
beforehand and it was winter warm.

That was the first thing that
came to mind with this drink.

And we're talking about the nose
here of Ana seeds, peppers mint,

black and benign or Brownlee apple.

The problem is I find with all
these, these tasting notes is they

go, well, the more flavors we can
get in the list, the more chances

you have of getting something right.

Can you see, do you need to ring
the bottle out there, Marie?

So, yes.

Thank you very much in deed color.

Wow.

Right.

Orangy

Marijn: brown, right.

It, I think if we turn off the
lights, it would still give yeah.

It will flow.

Yeah.

It's such a beautiful,
beautiful, beautiful glow.

Steve: Yes.

It almost has a nose of a cocktail.

Doesn't it?

Marijn: Well, I was, I was just
smelling it while I was sporting it

and it kind of, it kind of has vaguely
the same nose as the number tree,

but this one is a little bit warmer.

It's got that lemonade kind of smell.

He had that as well.

Yes.

This

Steve: is a grown up a little bit.

Yes.

Marijn: But this is a bit warmer,
so it's not warm funder, but I mean,

it's, it's like Fanta took a walk
in the forest in autumn sunny day.

Okay.

Steve: It is nice.

It certainly has that hint of
sort of sweetness around it.

But no, it's not overly sweet.

No, no, no.

It's not over.

Sorry.

I brought the microphone there now
instead of the glass in front of my mouth.

So it's not overly sweet on the nose.

And as you say it is smells red.

If you had to, if you had a
color to this is kind of, you

know, has that depth to it.

It's beautiful.

Marijn: It is.

So what?

Oh, you already went the head.

I call it.

It's got nice stairs as well.

If you swirl it around, it's got
some nice steers on the glass.

Steve: Oh, the finish is amazing.

I know that.

I know that I'm ahead of you already.

Marijn: That's okay.

That's okay.

I just like to see you enjoy

Steve: it's it's quite, it's got a
bite, so trust me, you got to buy,

but it's, and it's only three years
and one day, you know what I mean?

It is very, very young.

But then all of a sudden,
your math explodes in this.

Roses kind of florally for a

Marijn: but

Steve: not in a warm kind of way.

Yeah.

What does it actually say?

It

Marijn: really reminds me of the
number tree, but in a warmer scent.

Yeah.

You just

Steve: said that.

Yeah.

It's coming from the same,
still with the same delivery.

It's it's,

Marijn: you know, I would think that
the maturation in different costs

would have much more of difference
because if we compare the record.

Oxford a ride with the number tree.

That's a big difference.

Steve: Well, this is if we call this
number four, which is what they say

is of course, then they're going
to improve from one to another.

They're going to try and
work out what they need.

And I think they've done
a good job with that.

Oh yeah,

Marijn: no, absolutely.

Yeah.

It's kind of like comparing the
art big 10 with the art deck.

UDL UDL doll is kind of the same as
the 10, but it brings much more depth

and warmth and smokey bacon into it.

And this has the same thing.

It's like number trees, more
of a summer and spring whiskey.

And number four is more of a
autumn style whiskey, right?

Steve: Yeah.

I'm just letting you drink.

I'm listening and tasting.

I was just thinking that we were
talking about going to the UK Bletchley

event and I was just trying to work
out how far away it was from Oxford.

I love this.

The finishes got such a variety as it.

Well, let me tell you what the
finish is supposed to be creamy.

Definitely silky, peppery and minty.

I'm not sure about that.

Hints of espresso and laundry.

Sorry.

Linger, linger in toast of sourdough.

Smokiness.

Marijn: I get the smokiness.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I get the minty.

I get the peppery.

Yeah, but the toast of soar Dow
Brett, not really, but that's okay.

That's okay.

Steve: It's different.

And we can keep talking about it forever.

Oh, to be honest, it'd be good.

But it is spent, honestly, it really
is appreciated me and I know you're

looking forward to tasting it.

Because I can't, man, the
man's got so much patience.

You won't get the bottle until January.

He's got to go through Christmas
because I won't get to see him.

And, you know, I think he's savoring
the taste and making it is 20, 22

Marijn: or people making it so
incredibly difficult from themselves.

We know people that are running
long distance marathon thing

is like, why would you do that?

Steve: I mean, this is
still happening for me.

I'm sorry.

This finish

Marijn: is it's whiskey.

Steve: It is.

It's very cool.

It's a, yeah, it's just
an interesting place.

Full-stop and they've certainly graduated.

Yes.

There's no doubt about that.

Yep.

Yes.

Alrighty, cool.

Down to get to work.

It is.

Yeah.

I wonder what happens when
you put a drop of water on it?

Ooh, good call.

Marijn: That's a good call.

Let's see what that does.

it definitely brings out
more of those floral notes.

Do not.

Yes.

Steve: I agree with that.

It makes it a bit easier on the nose.

Actually.

It's more subtle now takes
away that it's kind of that

harshness, that new age peppery.

Marijn: Yeah.

That'd be rough fetch.

Yeah.

Yeah.

okay.

Yeah, definitely smoother on the nose.

Steve: It makes a big difference.

Okay.

He was 51.3.

It wasn't it.

So drop a water, bringing it
down to probably less than 50.

Makes a big difference.

Oh, I can taste the banana now.

Marijn: Oh yeah.

Oh

Steve: wow.

I can taste the banana on the finish.

Marijn: Wow.

It's got that grumpy, that
grumpy middle section that

yeah.

It's like when you drive a really
nice sports car and at some point,

you know, the engine just goes
like before it starts howling,

and this is, this is what it is.

Steve: It's because it's
softened that pepper.

Yup.

And that's kind of, as you said, brought
out that growl of it's a great description

of what it does, but it's happened honor.

That's there it's that black and banana
comes out with a touch of water in it.

This has got so much data it's fan.

You really are going to
enjoy this immensely.

I really hope you do.

And if you don't, I'll take
whatever's left in the bottle.

Oh yeah, no, definitely.

You'd have to also check out with the
people you give the drinks to from

Germany and see what they thought.

Oh, I will, I will

Marijn: reach out.

Thought about the number tree.

Steve: Yep.

Yeah.

That's cool.

What I find is that this whiskey so
interesting from a distillery that is

effectively run like a student frats club.

You know, it's a, the bar is
there with, with the, doing their

stuff in the summer, they had, oh,
beautiful beaches on the outside.

So highly to recommend a visit.

Well, it's been an interesting mix of a
podcast we're just approaching the hour.

So we, within our.

We're kind of full once
in the last 50 episodes.

Yes.

We don't want to change
the habit of a lifetime.

So what we're going to talk about next?

No, no, no.

Let's, let's round this down a bit.

So basically what we were trying
to get you to do, people was to

understand that, yes, there's a
process for rolling out Microsoft 365.

This is going to be driven
by the needs of the business.

Yes.

At the moment, working from home, et
cetera, et cetera, is driving a lot of

that improved communications, improved
sharing of content, et cetera, et cetera.

But you need to identify
what your plan for.

Evolution is how you're going to
evolve your product, give your business

something new, something valuable, okay.

In small iterative steps.

And that is easier than trying
to plan a whole governance plan

for every single SharePoint site
that you need to put into place.

Use our products on baseline
governance, identify your content types.

If that's what you need to do,
identify your hub site parents.

If that's what you need to do, get
all of those done quickly and easily.

You can change them and modify them,
but then work out what the business

needs and then plan to evolve.

So plan for improvement, not just plan
for delivery, plan for improvement.

That's what we were trying to get
you to do is to think through those

kinds of things that will add value.

Oh, man, I kind of set you up then for a

Marijn: nice, I know, I know
the only thing I have to say.

Amen.

Yeah.

Preach my man preach.

Steve: We always do that.

I always do that.

Well anyway, so a habit or a bad habit,
I don't know whether that's the case,

Marijn: but you've definitely got a point.

I mean, most because I'm, I'm just
making an assumption here that

at least 50% of people that are
listening to us are consultants.

Really?

I think, I think so.

We, we need to check
our demographic, but I.

To a customer to actually do
something from start to finish.

And then most of the time
the company will second.

Now it's time.

We've given you a lot of
enough money, walk away.

We'll handle it from here.

We'll do the operations part, but they
actually forget that evolving part.

And with a platform like office
365, that's always evolving.

That's evergreen.

This plan to evolve is super
important because you will

know you will get new stuff.

For example, now start thinking
about how the loop components will be

affecting the way you do collaborations.

In three months or in six months time.

That's

Steve: true.

So from an operational perspective,
they need to be thinking about

the updates that might exactly.

Yeah.

That's evolution as

Marijn: well.

Yeah.

So yeah, you, you need to, that
that is something that you need

from your consulting party.

This

Steve: subject evolves, it

Marijn: evolves just like the
whiskey, how that evolves.

Steve: That was cool.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, look, we hope we've given
you some thoughts on this.

I know it comes out of my strange
brain and yeah, check out some of the

presentations that we're going to do
around this around how you kind of

can identify that area of evolvement.

And it's not just about the
people that have to do stuff.

It's your stakeholders, your governance
boards, et cetera, et cetera.

You know, if everybody's aiming for
evolution in growth and benefits

and value, then everybody wins
and everybody becomes rockstars.

Marijn: Exactly.

It's all about value.

Steve: Yeah.

Neat.

All right.

Talking about value.

You cannot beat value of the graduates
from the Oxford RTT autism distillery.

Marijn: So although it's not that cheap,
but I think it's definitely worth.

Steve: There's cheap whiskey and
there's good whiskey as true.

All right.

And this is definitely in the good
whiskey range, but it's not overly

expensive, but anyway, there you go.

All right, well thank you for
spending your time with us.

We're just over an hour, so hope
you've enjoyed this process.

And I know you've learned something
from it, even if it's only one thing

you will have learned something for it.

And of course, that's
what we were trying to do.

So, Hey, this is Steve Dolby.

Say Steve, anywhere on Google, anywhere
on Twitter, anyone on Facebook, you will

find me with size Steve and I will as
always and over to the absolutely soup

verbally voiced and iterative Moran.

Marijn: Well, I was super excited about
the start of this podcast and I'm still

super excited at the end of the podcast.

So.

Yeah, every time we get together,
my mind kind of gets blown with new

concepts, with new ideas, with new
ways to talk to my customers, new ways

to handle tackle business problems.

This has been one of them.

I hope you enjoyed as well.

That's it for me at Moran so much.

Let me know what you
thought about this episode.

Let me know what you, you know, what,
what's the, what's the, what's the

key thing that you learned from this?

I know for some people like Kevin
it's buying a Cotswold is still re

whiskey because he heard it on the
podcast or on Kevin, his wife said

don't because we've got enough,
but he's still ventured through

Steve: all the wives say that
I, my wife says the same.

You don't need another whiskey.

Marijn: I know.

But then you've got a whiskey loving
girlfriend like me, and then she.

It says, man,

Steve: I've got real football.

I ought to make his mark today.

Having tasted it on our . Okay.

All right, let's go.

All right.

I should have.

Marijn: Okay.

Cheers guys.

See you next time.

Bye.

Millennials, we are truly

Steve: Steve, maybe more than Madame

during

Marijn: the business, like whiskey

Steve: and about